The powergrid nerf on the cane is a bit much imo. It should be able to fit a full rack of 425s + the neuts.

for christs sake, why do TDs need to affect missiles? Now you can't properly ever fight back against something wielding a TD!

The current Drake with 7x T2 HML launchers and 2x T2 BCU, firing T1 Scourge Heavy Missiles outputs 321 DPS.
The Hurricane with 6x T2 425mm Autocannons and 2x T2 Gyrostabs outputs 477 DPS.

Heavys range nerf.. ok. The DMG nerf is bad, Fozzie wake up!?!?!?!

and what about the heavy assault missile? doesn't it need a buff? noone uses them...

I still stand by my new module suggestion. To have the TD be able to disrupt ALL weapon systems with one mod is, IMO, too effective. (could be said for ECM, but you need racial jammers to be effective)

I am fine with the mod to have the same prereqs as the tracking disruptor, and recieve the same bonuses. Just have a different module. It will be better for the lore, more intuitive and would not make the TD OP.

After giving it a day to think about it and reading further, I think the HML nerfs are pretty fair - but still need testing. And I would make sure you sell the justification up front, in bold letters, with pretty graphs and charts, or you will see lots of rage when the rest of Eve starts to pay attention.

However, there's still one imbalance with respect to HAMs and HMLs, and that is the fitting requirements.

Since close range fighting is the version that requires more tank, shouldn't HAMs, the soon-to-be only way to fight close range with a drake, be the weapon system that has lower fitting requirements, enabling a heavier tank to be fit?

My Caldari alt trained Drakes and HMLs because when comparing them to HAMs, there just was no reason to trade away the extra fittings for less range, less effectiveness vs. small targets and slightly more damage. Now that HAMs will be the only reasonable DPS option for a drake with tackle, shouldn't they have have the lesser fitting requirements like all the other close range weapon systems?

The drake doesn't have much capabilty to fit TCs if it wants to maintain EHP and still have web and scram.

I can see where this could be problematic.

A Drake also has 4 low slots.

-> Please think about all things that affect missiles (flight time, smart bombs, exp speed, exp radius, defenders, ect...) before nerfing them!!!

Out of curiosity what exactly are you guys hoping you'd see from a BC balance pass that would change your opinion of this missile proposal? The Drake has a fine set of bonuses so once heavy missiles are balanced I don't expect I'd want to change it very drastically.

Again: If the weapon system itself is THAT good; why are only two hulls (ab)using it to any success? To me that says it's a lot more than the weapon system. I suspect it wouldn't matter what you put on a drake and it'll still chew you out (otherwise, the beast that is the HAM drake wouldn't exist). A drake is, by and large, weapon system agnostic (ultra short range stuff like blasters may be the exception).

Range only. The problem is missles are not the same as guns so you can't attribute the same things to them. The problems aren;t the missles but the ships that are fitting them. It's just a lazy fix instead of actually looking at the ships causing the problems with the missles.

not that a post on the forum would make an actualy change or even be read by ccp but hey at least i can get my 5 cents off:

its always the same:

You look for a powerful ship, a niche that makes good isk and train for it, invest your time and skillpoints in it to be able to fly the ship or do the job and what happens is:

every time you trained for that stuff and find it cool and rewarding its gets nerfed!

be it incursions, the dramiel, the tengu - you name it

Its makes you tired and wondering whats next (factional warfare maybe) - you look for the next niche and hope ccp takes long enough to nerf it for it to be at least fun for a while ..
well then

I must say I enjoyed flying incursions, i loved the dramiel and my tengu as well ...

I just wonder why all this nerfing is necessary - who cares if a ship or profession is somewhat better than another one - everyone is free to choose those so why this endless try to make everything average ???

Damage output is ALWAYS below the output of other races like minmatar or gallente!

So caldari pilots have to skill twice as much!!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL CCP!!
You call that BALANCING!!!!

You nerf the missiles to crap!

I can only hope that there will be protest actions in Jita!!

Balancing is, when you finetune some stats, here you finetune with mj+¦lnir, Thor's Hammer!!!

Nerf the stats at least by half of what you hav planned and we will see.

Remember that Caldari missile skills have a major disadvantage:

a caldari has to skill rockets AND light missiles while another weapon system can use blaster or railguns, beam or pulse lasers, acs or arty

So caldari pilots have to skill twice as much!!!!!!!!!!!!

Damage output is ALWAYS below the output of other races like minmatar or gallente!

Tengus will be worthless in PVE. What is next on the list?? Nerfing Machariels???

Should have nerfed FW a long time ago, but no, let some special people exploit this mechanic!!

If u really feel the need to nerf missiles, at least redo the skill tree, so that caldari can use both missile types with only one skill instea of two!!

Is it fair that AC cane does 600dps while HAM drake does only around 450dps.. Why not nerf AC dmg by 20%. Also medium lasors should be nerfed as legion dominates NCO's too much.

And btw HAM drake can only fit 2 bcu because it will run out of cpu. Not to mention if you fit 1 TE its going to be only 1 bcu which lowers dps even more. While cane can easily fit 4 gyros and use barrage.

No you didnt understand the point at all. Its cheating to use ACR with HAM drake in comparison to AC cane that doesnt need to fit ACR for SR guns. As my point was that cane does too much dps when it can fit so many gyro. And by reducing its CPU it would balance AC cane compared to HAM drake. Also meta 4 modules are stupid because meta4 point has only 20k range. And meta4 DCU has lower resists. Also its price issue. You do know how much meta4 cost? Also its stupid because i could aswell make deadspace fitted cane to compare it to T2 fit drake cause price wont matter right?

Well sure but cane can burn away and warp out because of its speed. And then drake doesnt kill anything. Yes cane dps will go down but still it can pop rifter from 40k with barrage. HAM drake cant kill anything from 40k.

Not using EFT. This happened in game. And my point was to say that cane can shoot upto 40k when drake cant. As the guy who i answered to was stating that drake does more dmg at 30k with HAMS.

Yea maybe you bought one. But its bullshit to say you get it with 2mil every day. Jita price is 5million. You know i also once sold stabber fleet issue hull with 100mils but it doesnt make it market price to go 100mil.

http://eve-marketdata.com/price_check.php?type_name_header=Internal+Force+Field+Array+I

But thats the whole point of these nerfs. To balance them.. And it would balance them if cane would have to fit something like processor overcloking unit to be able to fit so many gyros and TE's.

"Stupid CCP homogenizing weapon platforms with this nerf! Oh, and they need to swap HAM and HML fitting to match SR/LR turrets. What do you mean, that something completely different."

Because of the potential impact to other caldari hulls.

See, the thing is, people assure you that ... say the caracal is perfectly viable and a great little hull. Odd then....that you hardly ever see them abusing this OP weapon system...

I also don't see Rooks tearing the place up with said system either. Before anyone says HAMs, if HML are OP...why not use them?

Just a couple of examples, but lets try to avoid any nasty side effects/mitigate them as much as possible.



There's also the whole TD affecting missiles thing, the stock retort of "lol fit a TE/TC then" assumes available mid slots. I'm pretty sure no-one runs with spare slots . This will result in sacrifice and yes, before you bother LOLDRAKETANK....what about every other ship?

This translates into a real decrease to missile boat effectiveness be it direct DPS or their survivability - and aside from the two known problem hulls, I don't see missile boats tearing up the cosmos.

see, the problem is that neither figures nor fittings are guaranteed to give you a balanced picture of the current state of things. let us - just for a moment - assume that neither the drake nor the tengu were as good as they are. let's just say the drake loses its resistance bonus and becomes unpopular for 0.0 blobs and the tengu loses its ability to fit 100mn ABs. both ships will instantly plummet on the killboards and with them, so will HMLs.
would then anybody in their right mind still complain about heavy missiles being too strong? i submit to you that heavy missiles would be where cruises, torpedoes and medium rails already are: insignificant and laughed at.

And the jury is out if the caracal will be "awesome" current projections are (I believe) lower DPS even with an extra BCU...

Whilst you are correct, that status quo already exists for turret users and I DO see them tearing stuff up. It's called WINmatar for a reason.

Or are you suggesting ALL missile hulls need to have a global reduction in PvP effectiveness because they are too good? Because...you know...that'd be a tough sell.

Indeed, and I see a case (a strong case) for sorting these boats, but I can't quite reconcile why the TD thing? Why not more surgical to target the known issues?

Seems odd.

Check 425mm AC range with Barrage under Curse's TDs.

what if he does not have the time? are the people who spent a year training for the nighthawk supposed to unsubscribe until 2014? yes i know i know, train turrets lol. except by the time you trained for *insert turret system here*, it may already be up for the nerf bat just like missiles are now.

oh btw: the SNIs damage is about half of what a pimped machariel can bring and no amount of tracking will get it even to comparable levels.

You do know that javelins make you even slower?

Gunboats get ROF bonuses, or (unrestricted) damage bonuses, or both. Comparing the drake to the hurricane at BC 5, the drake gets +25% DPS to kinetic only while the hurricane gets +50% to all projectile damage.

If CCP is going to go ahead and balance the raw damage of missiles to be in line with its peers, they need to do the same with ship bonuses at the very least.

Yes...and where are the boats going to put these modules? They will sacrifice tank. Sacrifice tank they already don't have, to maintain a DPS which is already substandard.

Why?

Why do TD need to affect missiles **now**?

Why can't it wait until the hulls are balanced? What is so criminal about light/cruise/rockets/torps/etc that we need to reduce their carrying hulls effectivness immediately?


All I can think of is missile boats need a PvE leg up....but there's better ways to do that....

Jesus....what part of "SET ASIDE THE HML PLATFORMS"

is it you're struggling with?

/facepalm


Present some statistical evidence (like the kind so commonly cited to prove HML are broken) that demonstrates missile hulls [APART FROM HML] are in need of a power check.

I agree, but can't work out why the TD needs doing now - unless its reaction to a backhanded PvE buff...which as I say would be a bit weird.

Of course, if its a separate module, then my concern can be considered addressed as we're back to rock, paper scissors modules and not "fit this or die"

I don't know if there has been any more consideration about making a separate module for missiles rather than adding additional effects to the tracking enhancer/computer. Seriously, i think this would be a major help, and help keep the diversity between guns and missiles. This would allow fittings for the new mods to be tailored for missile ships.

Ok here is the real reason why balancing is going on IMO. Eve has always been a game for the more mature minded player.
The type of player that would set a 20 day skill to get a 10% gain total on a skill that only gives 2% per level.
The players that are coming into eve now are looking for the quick fix and are not will to put in the time or the planning for their toon.
I have seen this 1st hand in a corp I joined up with awhile back. All the players were new 3-6 months old with some around a year old. They did not want to take the time to train the skills needed to advance in the right way it was quick get the skill to level 3 so I can get the next big ship.

Balancing IMO is to level the playing field between eveGÇÖs old style players that take the time and planning to train and eveGÇÖs new style player that just wants everything now. IMO ccp is leveling the field between the 2 different styles of players so that the new style player does not quit. Balancing should be done to make ships and mods better not worse. Why make the people that took the time and planning to train their skills to lv5 change their play style?

Players that take the time to train from support skills on up to lv5 to make there toon the best in a certain race of ship or weapons class should be in an elite class. And that elite class of player should have an advantage over the player that does not want to invest the time to do the same. So donGÇÖt nerf our mods, ships and weapons and call it balancing! Instead go out and fix the things that are really broken.

The changes that happened to the mining barges that form of balancing should be done. The current changes that are going on IMO is not to make a ship or mod better but it's to level the playing field between players.

Leveling the playing field between players that have access to the same skill books, implants, ships and mods should not be done. Once you start this type of balancing you take way from the players that do put the time in to max out there training.

IMO your telling people that took the time to max out there skills your better than your neighbor that does not want to invest the time like you did so I'm going to make things even by nerfing your ship and mods.

About the only really good thing that is coming from this is the removal of t2 ammo penalties.

^ With comparison to great white shark.

All the rats would just alert each other a tengu warped in, then they would warp out and vacate the area till you left, then come back in.

I don't see you making much isk that way, and might feel wimpy still.

Could you show us where they use missiles for sniping in real world?
Where missiles deal instant damage in real world?



Use HAMs.

What amazes me about these changes is that

1. after trying them out on the test server they are crap, no more buying GTCs to turn into plexes to put up for sale to replace lost drakes and tengu,. Yeah for lost revenue for CCP!
2. One of the best things about the Drake is how quickly new players can train to use one, it is a simple good ship to use and actually helps draw new people into the game, before they have to train into something more complicated to fly. I see more and more people being turned off from Eve, less new players means more lost revenue!

I am sure that if these changes go into effect that I will not be the only one to let my accounts lapse and just move on to another game.

Balancing the game? Really? Seems more like an idea to weaken two of the best ships in the game hoping people will buy more GTCs to convert to salable plexes to replace the loses.

There is a saying, if it is not broken don't fix it.

Once everyone realizes all the changes that CCP is making to this game is just another means to get us to spend more money on it buying GTCs they are screwed, No more extra money for them.

Buy the GTC! it is worth 2 months game time, a 30 dollar value for 35 dollars! Oh but you can split it into single months and sale them in game for ISK! oh wait or you can convert it in to another form of currency and buy pants! Lost a billion isk ship? That's okay buy a GTC and sale the plexes!

It is getting ridicules CCP, quit screwing **** up